In this episode of the PressPectives podcast, Fionnuala Duggan, Executive Director Education at The Economist, divulges the strategy behind the renowned publisher’s online course portfolio targeted at mid-career executives.
To begin, Fionnuala reflects on how her career trajectory—from a background in experimental physics to leadership roles in digital transformation and education—mirrors her commitment to critical thinking, innovation, and societal progress; three priorities that are central to the work she’s doing today.
Under Fionnuala’s leadership, Economist Education has leveraged The Economist’s editorial expertise to create courses on topics like writing, critical thinking, AI, data visualization, decision making and climate change.
Fionnuala shares how Economist Education has collaborated with the newsroom and external experts to ensure high-quality content and where she sees AI playing a role in enhancing—but never replacing—the human element of teaching.
Transcript
Ruairí Doyle
[0:07] Hello and welcome to another episode of PressPectives where we are diving into topics at the intersection of technology and publishing together with incredible guests. The Economist is respected globally for its independent analysis on the most important issues including current affairs, international business politics, technology and culture but its impact does not end with its editorial. In 2021 The Economist group launched its education pillar providing courses for mid-career executives to learn invaluable skills for the modern leader across a range of topics like business writing data visualization storytelling critical thinking and decision how to apply AI and business along with courses in international relations and climate change. To explore how it all came to be and what the learnings have been Fionnuala Duggan joins us the founder and executive director of Economist Education. Fionnuala you are very welcome to the show where in the world are you joining us from and what are you up to this week.
Fionnuala Duggan
[1:17] Thank you Ruairí for such a great introduction. It's a pleasure to be here thank you for the invitation you're in and I'm in London in North London and where the market is big tourist attraction and here we're very happy after the recent election results. and we have a new wave of optimism and hope I think in the UK with the new labor government that's just won with a huge Landslide.
Ruairí Doyle
[1:50] I was going to ask you about that it was a whirlwind election I think it was 25 days in total the general election campaign first government in change of government in 14 years.
Fionnuala Duggan
[2:06] I mean everybody certainly living in London which tends to lean towards labor around where I live which is yeah there's a lot of hope. Especially among young people so my children who were late teens and 20s are so happy to see a change of government in place everybody got very sick of the conservatives and all their changes of prime minister over the last 10 years or so. Particularly in recent years so it's the young people particularly are very excited about seeing new government.
Ruairí Doyle
[2:38] Fionnuala of course I want to pick your brains today on all things Economist Education however I'd like to start by spending a little bit of time on your own very interesting background you studied experimental physics at Trinity College. You hold an MBA and then I think after that there's going of three broad phases to your career you first had a phase which was a series of roles in digital transformation and media publishing and entertainment and I guess the role is a chief digital officer in companies like McMillan and Random House. And then moved into the education world and took on a series of operational roles in companies like Core Smart, Future Learn, Informa and today of course you're you're working with the Economist Education and along the way you've done a lot and you're still working in a non-executive capacity with different boards. You've been involved with and were founder of the BAFTA interactive entertainment Awards, you've been on the board of the Irish Independent or Independent news and media group as it was formerly known before Media Haus which I also spent a little bit of time in. You've been involved in the board of Yale University Press, London Metropolitan University and today you're doing a number of non-executive work in European corporate venture capital and with some young entrepreneurial companies including the tomorrow University in Berlin but I want to go back to the start I'm curious uh what drew you to experimental physics originally and how did that then meander its way to digital transformation.
Fionnuala Duggan
[4:31] Experimental physics is a fascinating subject and I think I liked the challenge. I like the challenge of doing something hard and once you get into physics you realize what a creative subject it actually is and how much imagination the top physicists in the world have because they've got to imagine all kinds of weird and wacky ideas. So it's you know essentially a subject that's kind of grounded in facts I suppose and maths is the language but within that you've got the opportunity for enormous amount of really out of box thinking, creative thinking, imaginative thinking so it's a really it's a great subject and you can it appeal to all kind of different aspects of different types of people so I really enjoyed that. And then my final year I built a huge laser which my kids find really cool so I built this enormous laser with some PhD students and we it was in a big dark room and it was about three meters long wow it wasn't the same as a Star Wars kind of laser it was something that had a medical application so you know it's also can be very handsome as well so it's a great foundational I think to do a degree in physics I recommend.
Ruairí Doyle
[5:47] And I have to ask is the laser still alive today or it's just photos now?
Fionnuala Duggan
[5:55] I think they might have moved on it was kind of decades ago so they probably moved on so as you as you went through different phases.
Ruairí Doyle
[6:07] In your career from digital media and transformation to education and now of course all the board work that you do in parallel with that I mean are there fundamentals from the experimental physics that stay true across all the different sectors and industries that you've worked in.
Fionnuala Duggan
[6:20] I mean I think one of the things that is kind of rising at the moment is critical thinking and one of our courses in that about critical thinking and given the complexity of the world and all the data that we have and all the geopolitical unrest finding a path forwards often means you know really refining your thinking skills and there's actually a I think a strong crossover between scientific thinking and critical thinking. So one of the things you learn when you do any science degree is scientific thinking and also you learn to be data driven and that's also something which is very important in the world any science degree engineering any stem kind of degree and others too you will learn about looking at data sourcing data comparing data and making data based decisions. So those are a couple of the things that are that are still you know that are very important these days and that I got from my degree but then if you also think around you know the limits of knowledge which is kind of one philosophical question one of the things you learn in physics is that people are always throwing out old things that they thought were true and finding a new replacement. So you constantly you're led to question everything and sort of think a little bit more out of the box and that's also something which is which I'm very drawn to and a lot of entrepreneurs and people who like Innovation and Technology growth and that's going about too so I think that's also something that you can really get from a scientific background.
Ruairí Doyle
[7:51] Agree and I'm curious then from digital transformation you then stepped into the world of
diving into education. What was the catalyst or if I can use that word the catalyst or the motivation to dip your toe into the education sector?
Fionnuala Duggan
[8:10] Then so like I think education is just such an important part of everybody's lives it's such an important part of society and it's such part of economic growth it's such an important part of the strength of a company or a country's economy so it's such a vital part of our modern life and education is a pathway people use it as a pathway to get you know further ahead in their career. Maybe to move countries maybe to earn money to send back home. So you know education is just so important and with all the changes that have happened in digital which I've witnessed in the record business and Publishing in other sectors you can see how all of those platforms and products and connectivity can really help to transform education and modernize it in a way that improves learning outcomes and changes people's availability of Education to people and the distribution of education and their engagement with it. So there's a huge amount that can be improved in the delivery of education through techology. So I was very excited to find a way to be involved with that to help to drive that forwards and you know and it's just a really exciting space and a very worthwhile space.
Ruairí Doyle
[9:29] And today you're heading up Economist education, I'm curious what was the original strategy or inspiration behind Economist education?
Fionnuala Duggan
[9:44] Yeah so you know Rory you worked a lot in media and I have too and media as a sector is suffering you know hugely from competition from digital media as you know and also the proliferation of content online. So the business model for media is under attack from many different sides. But yet and all media businesses have enormous strengths they have enormous brand they reach they have loyalty they have capabilities into consumer markets, professional markets to reach into those markets. Media companies have editorial expertise that spells the written word digital publishing audio publishing video that and all of those things if you could build all of those things into another sector that doesn't have the same competitive issues well that would be a really good thing. So the media company could grow into that new sector the thinking was that we would take what The Economist has and the an that are relevant in the education space and build out an education business.
Ruairí Doyle
[10:56] On that relevance note we talked earlier in the intro where I introduced some of the the different areas and courses that Economists Education offers. How did you and your team land on those courses specifically was it it mapped to the strengths of The Economist from that point of view, or you also did a mapping to the market.
Fionnuala Duggan
[11:20] So it was a bit of both really so you know thinking about so our first two courses were our professional
Communications business writing course that was the second one and the first course was our international relations course and if you think about The Economist those are those are the two things you think about you think about the quality of the writing and the education through writing and you think about The Economist's geopolitics coverage it's global geopolitics coverage and and how good that is. So we thought that we would actually start our portfolio with the two things that we're most known for and it's so happened that one of those was a skills course. The writing course and one of those was a topic course or an insights course if you like and we thought well okay we're not sure which of those areas is going to be biggest market for us so we'll we'll try we'll start out with a skills course. Very strongly identified with our brand and we'll start out with a top our inside course those it takes it round.
Ruairí Doyle
[12:10] And over the last three years, I guess, it's evolved and now there's a number of different courses. I'm curious, which ones are the most popular or where you see the most demand across all these diverse courses that you offer?
Fionnuala Duggan
[11:41] Yeah, so what we did then, whereas we built out other courses in those two veins, so in the stills area, which actually is a much larger market in corporate training than topics. So we decided that we would double down on the skilled area and we built out, we thought very long and hard about this and had lots of workshops and discussed with our editorial colleagues in the newsroom to get their views. And we looked at the market and did some of the research and did a lot of thinking as well. And we decided that we would try to identify the skills that we thought modern leaders needed in order to succeed and build their businesses and grow in the current age against all of the new technology coming, the AI rising, and also with the geopolitical unrest, it makes it very complicated to lead an organization. So we then thought, okay, we'll build out courses that will support our audience to navigate complexity. So the writing course is a very strong course and it's working very, very well for us. It represents over half of our sales actually. It's phenomenally successful. But other courses that we've built have complement that and that are also very popular are the Critical Thinking and Decision Making course, where we have Daniel Kahneman, and many others. Our Data Visualization course, which is also very, very popular. We have an AI skills course that we've launched just recently that has a lot of stuff in it around property engineering and really practical skills and ways to use AI in your job right now. And we have an Intergovernmental and Persuasion course, which is an absolute key and evergreen skill in end development. So we're building this lovely portfolio of all the skills that you need for your team and an organization. And then on the topic side, on the insight side, we've chosen a longer, more involved format, Originance Relations course. It's John, also about that climate course and a FinTech course. And those deal with the detailed history and up-to-date-ness of those different topics. And the climate course is around making the trade-offs that a business needs to make in order to get to net zero and continue to compete in their business area.
Ruairí Doyle
[15:08] Thank you. how much, how involved is the economist team been since the early days of starting with the two courses that you mentioned to now having this lovely portfolio, as you call it? Is the economist team still involved in shaping each course before you bring it to market?
Fionnuala Duggan
[15:26] We was all very efficient way working with the newsroom. As I'm sure you know, the newsroom's time and journalistic time was incredibly scarce. So one of the difficulties in creating these courses was how to involve the newsroom in such a way that they had the right level of influence and the right level of oversight, but we didn't take up too much time because they're incredibly stretched and very busy. But the courses that didn't have a a strong involvement of newsroom. So the way that works is we start out, we do a lot of research every time we try and do make a new course. We research the markets. We research our readers. find out what topics they'd like to learn from the economists. So we have a continuing background in market research going on all the time. And then once we've picked a topic, we have an idea of what the next course would be. Once we pick the next course, we then identify who will get involved. And we sit down with colleagues when they're available to really kind of throw around the topic and try and think about how we're going to structure it. What's going to be included, what's going to be excluded, what our view is going to be in different aspects. And then that goes into the design documents for the course, and which we work on with our instructional design partners. And then we work with selected editorial colleagues to flesh out the design in much more detail. Economist Education has got the condit editorial staff on the team on a full-time basis who have worked around the group. So people who contribute to the newspaper also work with the EIU potentially and with the FAD. They're not very strongly aligned with the economist journalistic values. And then we work with chosen journalists at the newsroom. They might be, course, founder, which is one of the key roles or they might be a supervising editor. So every course and every topic is different. So we work that they're involved with into the course. We develop all the outside videos, podcasts, writings. We invite external speakers to come in. We found Eric Schmidt. We found, I mentioned before, Daniel Kahneman. We've had Kevin Rudd and a host of other extraordinary people have come and contributed to our courses. And then we put the whole thing together and bring it out to market. Before it goes on, of course, it's subject to economist editorial scrutiny, economist fact checking and data checking. And, you know, every, all the newsroom tools are applied to make sure that it's a perfect product.
Ruairí Doyle
[18:17] I'm just wondering, as it's a relatively new pillar for the economist group, right? In the last three years, given your experience from the digital transformation days, culturally, how has it been in terms of Economist Education growing and becoming more tangible inside the organization? So I hear you that the newsroom are involved in curating and preparing the courses, but is there a loop back in terms of impact of these courses and is it just as much something that's talked about internally and alongside other pillars like news, subscriptions and different things like that.
Fionnuala Duggan
[18:59] Look, mean, economist education is still pretty small by comparison to the newspaper, which was founded in 1843 so it's still pretty small. But we have, we have great relationships right across the group. We work with the newsroom, as I said. We also work with our colleagues in Economized Impact who work with large corporations on thought leadership projects. And very often we work with them on a key account basis to bring out our education products and roll them into a package. So, you know, there are lots of different ways of collaborating across the group for our business. In our B2C goods market, which is mainly performed with marketing, we also collaborate with colleagues who do customer acquisition for the newspaper. So there's many, we have many, touch points and points of collaboration with the group.
Ruairí Doyle
[19:54] You mentioned across the lovely portfolio, there's a diverse range of courses today. Do you have your own favorite? My favorite? Yeah, your own favorite and why?
Fionnuala Duggan
[20:06] I have a really soft spot for the writing course because we made that in the middle of pandemic. And it was, you know, and we got with Lane Green who's the person who's edited, I'm just looking at my shelf up there, the style guide, writing with the colorist style guide. And he just re-edited it and he was videoed in his home and the video all had to be redone again because he had such a mess with the video press time around because it was so difficult to do everything. But it's a fantastic course. We've got all the journalists in there talking about things like writer's block and how they get going with when they're stuck and their tips for getting something done in a hurry. It's a great course because it's, it has a kind of, a little bit of a, I hate me for saying this, a little bit of a homemade feeling, but the structure is incredibly strong. And it's also, we've got phenomenal feedback on it and lots of people are so grateful for it because it's really changed the way they approach writing It's not just about writing, it's about thinking. It's like, what do you want to say? How am going to say it? And who's it for? And what do I want? What happened after? They read this and of I've said this. or put this in a PowerPoint deck it's actually, it's a really useful skill to have, foundational skill, and it's a really great force. And it's got a good reputation because the economy is so well known for a good writing.
Ruairí Doyle
[21:30] And it's often assumed that, you know, as we go through our education, be it post-primary, be it university, that we just pick up these skills and we're amazing writers, right? And it's not something that you can take for granted. These are skills you need to develop and learn like anything else.
Fionnuala Duggan
[21:48] No, I completely agree. But it's something you can develop and learn. And actually, my kids who are at university are learning the opposite. They're learning academic writing, which is how to write very long, unrelated sentences. If you're in an environment where everybody's using chat GPT, but you've actually got the skills to structure your thinking and structure your sentences in a way that it makes them sound like they've been written by a human, then you're really going to stand out. It's a very interesting time for writing and journalistic skills.
Ruairí Doyle
[22:18] Fionnuala, you mentioned earlier the diverse range of courses that Economist has in its education portfolio today. Is there one that's the pick of the bunch for you or one that's your favorite?
Fionnuala Duggan
[22:33] You know, we really like the writing courses a lot, it's a really vibrant course. So many journalists were involved. It was written by Elaine Green, who's just re-guided the Economist Writing Guide, one of the really popular books on writing, so the Economist Style Guide. And he's also written books in his own write-on writing. He writes the writing column in The Economist. He's perfectly qualified to do this. We videoed him during the pandemic, so all the videos were done in his house and it was all looking very kind of slightly shaky camera and a little bit homemade. But actually it's a really fun course, of great exercises in it. One of my teams, a new team members did it the other week and he spent enormous amount time in it and absolutely loved it and totally transformed his writing. So it's also such a core... part of what The Economist does, which is clear and concise writing. And also in my view, it's an even more important thing to do now, because in the world of chat GPT and LLMs doing writing for you, you know, if you are able to get your thinking straight and really understanding who you're writing for and differentiate yourself in that way with, you know, high quality writing, it's going to be a very helpful way of standing out as an executive or as a leader. And so, it isn't just about the actual writing, it's about getting your thinking straight in the beginning and trying to work out why it is you want to forces you to think about why you want to make these points and in what order. So it's really, it's more really about thinking and then communicating through words. So, we, we really love that course and it's our most popular course.
Ruairí Doyle
[24:24] It reminds me of a tool I sometimes use. Not when it's, you know, we've all types of emails and communication that we need to do every day. But sometimes if it's the end of the day and it's a big topic and it requires some critical thinking and I'm not sure where my headspace is at, I'll just close the laptop and I'll come back to it in a couple of hours or the next day. And I find it's those moments where I'm walking the dog or doing something else that something clicks and I realize, and yeah, it's kind of, it's time critical thinking that can make a message more. succinct and powerful.
Fionnuala Duggan
[25:00] That's absolutely right. Also it's going to have more impact because you're going to be really behind what you're thinking about. What you've to your mind. And chat GPT is very often a really great, fast solution. But in this day and age, you really need to work hard to find really the best solution that you're capable of. Our other courses around the critical thinking course and the data visualization course also cover some of the materials in that course. So the critical thinking course is all around trying to distinguish signal from noise, trying to think through the implications of decisions. And there's a technique in it, which is called a pre-mortem, where you actually sit down and think about what could go wrong. Instead of doing a post-mortem when it's a bit too late, you actually do pre-mortem and if there's some lovely kind of ways of thinking about making decisions and lots of approaches that are suggested by the people that teach that. And these things are all kind of really valuable things to have us to incorporate into your life.
Ruairí Doyle
[26:15] I'm going to borrow the pre-mortem right away. It's a great framing. It's a really good framing. With regard to, you know, artificial intelligence, chat, GBT, all of the LLMs that are around at the moment. Your course, Applying AI in Business, I think is the title of the course. How do you stay up to date with that type of content in an industry that is changing by the hour, by the day, so fast? How do you guys stay up to date with?
Fionnuala Duggan
[26:59] That's going to be difficult. We're going to have to update the videos quite often in that course. I mean, some of the material in the are around framing artificial intelligence, where it's come from, and it's sort of understanding its trajectory and therefore where it might be going and the pace of change as well as understanding those things. And then there's stuff around putting it into the context of how you use it in your job. We talk about the LLMs and the... and where they are right now, how to use them, how to get the best out of them, of from engineering, but also how to understand what you might need to add to what the LLMs offer you. So what other inputs and information you might need, when they might be wrong. And also how you would apply critical thinking to the output of the LLMs. So it's actually putting all the different things together. So yeah, so to answer your question, we will be updating that course. We update all our courses on different timeframes as you would imagine. The writing course doesn't need to be updated as much as others, but we keep a very close eye on updating them.
Ruairí Doyle
[28:06] Do you see, or have you seen yet, either in Economist Education, a role for AI LLMs to play in creating course content or enabling the consumption of course content. I'm interested in your views and thoughts around that.
Fionnuala Duggan
[28:24] Sure. mean, as far as creating course content, not really, not yet. We're still in the world of human written, human thinking, human writing, humans on videos. At the premium end of executive education, which is where we are, we're really distilling, condensing the key points or the key facts of all these subjects. So, what we're trying to do is give people really time efficient ways of grasping these key concepts and learning these key skills. Now look at other parts of the executive education and of the education business more broadly. There's a lot of activity around, I guess, and thinking around using AI to create more generic learning materials. So let's say for primary school curriculum or something where the materials are more likely to be commoditized and the classroom experience, is it very important that peer-to-peer interaction is also very important and practicing and exercising is very important part of learning the materials are as key, but what we're doing is using our, know, pre-materials to create materials as an intrinsic part of the learning, which makes the learning then more efficient, quicker, faster, more pleasurable for our audience. Our audiences, have to be said, mid-career executives, the majority of them have got two degrees. So we're talking about quite an educated group who probably want a more, you know, a learning experience that is tailored for them.
Ruairí Doyle
[30:23] Given your background in experimental physics and your experience in, you know, digital transformation now education, I'm curious, you personally, in this age or advent of AI and LLMs, are you optimistic, cautiously optimistic, pessimistic? You know, where do you sit in the kind of fence of what this technology is going to do for humanity.
Fionnuala Duggan
[30:58] Look, in education, it's got enormous benefits, enormous potential uses in education broadly, across the broad education sphere. The key, know, one of the most effective ways of teaching is actually one-to-one. And in the fullness of time, you can imagine that you have, you know, the ability to provide much better one-to-one tutoring with the assist in an AI assisted kind of So there are the other enormous things that really happened with education is the democratization of access to education in the two. Once you've got stuff in the cloud, anywhere it can be downloaded for zero costs. So there's huge, there have been enormous benefits already with online in the education sphere generally. So I'm enormous optimistic about the impact on education. that AI is going to have for those reasons and many other reasons. One of the challenges of education is to get high levels of engagement. They don't find the materials boring and they don't engage. You have to work very hard to get engagement. Each has a good teacher can get great engagement in a classroom. That's the material they're online. It's much harder to get that kind of engagement. But once you have AI enabled, you're going to be able to get better engagement as well. And feedback as well. Feedback and nudging platforms are extraordinary for any. And let's say you're doing a platform and you're feeling all, you're doing some online work and you're feeling all alone. And it's been like doing Duolingo when it pops up, it says, you haven't done your whatever today, but then you're going to jump on it. So, you know, these kinds of nudging things are extraordinarily effective at keeping people going, making people feel like they're not alone. It might not be learned, might be peer-to-peer interaction on their platform. So actually, they can always find that technology already has that and will be able to to improve engagement with education, learning outcome, democratization of education. So I think it's going to be noticing helpful. Just to say, just to be clear, I think the best model for education is actually a hybrid model, person and computer. People are doing their education technology, they walk into classrooms, the primary school kids, they say, gosh, there should be laptops on every desk and there should be a robot there by the front. For guessing that the teacher actually does an enormous amount of the teaching by being a human, by encouraging, by being warm, by giving feedback. But where technology has helped is that the technology has supported the administration of the teaching, where the teacher may use platforms for assessment or reading platforms homework or parent teacher or anything. All those administrative things can be taken away. It gives more time for actually one-to-one interaction. So, you know, the one-to-one interaction or the one-to-many interaction, supported by technology, is going to be the hybrid solution that works best. But in poorer countries, where they don't have as many teachers, just having access to the material in itself is wonderful. No, I'm usually I'm usually I'm optimistic for education with AI.
Ruairí Doyle
[34:15] Great. Great to get your perspective on that know, as somebody who has a mother who was a teacher, my sister was a teacher. I understood stood, you know, firsthand the amount of work that they had to do. My friends, today who are teachers, too, in questioning their career choice. And, you know, because they they work very hard, they have to deal with all the. elements of dealing with people in person who are developing in their lives. And then they have a mountain of work to do on the side it's really, yeah, it's really encouraging to hear your perspective on the one-to-one, the nudging and the access and how it's actually fundamentally positive from your perspective.
Fionnuala Duggan
[34:51] Yeah, I think there's an enormous amount that they can bring here. Absolutely.
Ruairí Doyle
[34:59] So what motivates you in education? today, what motivates you in economist education or working in the field of education?
Fionnuala Duggan
[35:04] So I love working with business growth and technology enabled growth has been my thing all the way through my career. So I like building, know, using technology or something which exists, for something new, putting them together and making a business grow. That's what I find exciting. I'm lucky enough at The Economist to be able to continue working on a non-executive capacity with some of the startups that I've mentioned to you. So I'm able to, which is something that I love doing as well. So mentoring and working as a non-executive director with startup companies in the field of executive education technology. I do quite a lot stills. So that's also something that I love doing. So for me, it's about building new businesses and doing nothing and seeing the growth come and that motivates me.
Ruairí Doyle
[36:00] Sounds very fulfilling and for any publishers out there who are thinking about developing an education pillar without giving away any of secret sauce, is there any learnings or any wisdom that you would would part onto them?
Fionnuala Duggan
[36:24] So for publishers who are thinking of going into education, you know, you need to do a lot of research, understand your audience. And also understand that education is a different space that there are assets you can bring in. You can bring in things I mentioned before, your brand, your reach, your editorial capability. But you need to understand how to create teaching and how to teach and how to position your courses compassionately against a competition that you'll find. So it is a different business. It's a new business, an interesting business. very interesting with that. But it needs, you know, it needs to be approached with research and with the full knowledge of what you've got and what you need.
Ruairí Doyle
[37:03] Good advice. And last question, I want to be respectful of your time. This is a question we're going to ask all of our guests on this show. Imagine a parallel universe where you never ventured into technology, digital transformation, experimental physics or education. What unexpected career or passion might you be following?
Fionnuala Duggan
[37:27] What would I have done? I would probably be a musician. well, well, a particular type of musician. Well, I'm learning. So I'm a pianist and I'm learning jazz piano. So I probably know my second career will be in the jazz piano.
Ruairí Doyle
[37:45] Very good. Very good. Look forward to hearing you. Thank you so much, Fionnuala. It's late there. Really appreciate you making the time. It was a lovely conversation. Thank you so much.
Fionnuala Duggan
[37:56] Thanks a million. Great to meet you, Ruairí. Thank you. You too. Take care.
Ruairí Doyle
[38:03]
And that's a wrap on our latest episode of the Prospectives podcast. Thank you very much, Fenula, for joining us and thank you all so much for tuning in. We will be bringing you new episodes every month, each one featuring a different leader in the world of publishing. So be sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube to catch the latest. Bye for now.
